More insurance!
I was going to post this as a comment on yesterday's, but I think it's a really important point about self-insurance, so I want to put it here. Perhaps we should also define "self-insurance". "Uninsured" is where the owner doesn't want to pay for insurance and spends the premium. "Self-insured" is where the owner has worked out that over a number of years they will be better off putting the money away in the bank and keeping it for when it's needed.
Money wise, if you have more than one horse and they are of similar values, self-insurance is a no-brainer. But there are some big buts. The first is that you must have the self-discipline never to spend the money on anything but horse treatment or horse replacement. The second is more profound and more difficult:
Much as I love my horses, no vet will ever hear the words from my mouth "do whatever you can to save him". I have a very firm grasp on how much money I would spend to achieve what potential outcome. For me, the horse would have to be at least 75% likely to live and be fit to at least do dressage and hack. And the bill would have to be substantially less than it would cost to replace him. I know that sounds desperately hard, and maybe it is, but I've seen people pay £10,000 to keep alive a horse that is already mid-teens that will never be anything but a paddock ornament. My personal belief is that there are far worse fates for a horse than to be quietly and peacefully dead. And as for us, well we cry for a few weeks, remember them forever, and buy another one that presents us with a whole different set of experiences. I've lost three to death and three more to loss of use in 30 years, so I'm getting some practice. But ask yourself that question - could you say "put him to sleep" if you knew that there were still things that could be done to keep him alive?? I've never been tested on that one yet, but I believe that I could. If you couldn't, then you need insurance with a very big maximum vet fees payout.
Whew, that was deep and serious wasn't it? Well there's nowt else going on here today. Jazz is as quiet as a lamb and I'm about to go and give him a little pick at some grass. There is only a very small lump around the staples now, and all the rest of the swelling is gone. Zip is ditto quiet and it's not nice enough to ride out and I don't want to stress his growing joints by schooling. Bored moi? Yup. Good job I'm working tomorrow :-)
C
posted by cptrayes @ 2:04 PM
15 comments
15 Comments:
I would do anything I could for a horse if I believed its quality of life would be good enough post treatment. I can't imagine what treatment would cost £10,000 on a horse? I would support one major colic operation for example, but not a second. I wouldn't prolong life for a horse with serious lameness/breathing/colic issues - its not fair to them. But my ultimate decision may well be the same as yours, but it wouldn't be based on a finances, nor whether the horse was "useful" to me after the treatment either - I have space to keep pasture ornaments, so my primary concern would be based on whether they would be happy with their lives or not.
Tracey B
I lost a horse to colic surgery--a lovely 4 year old. I had the first surgery, then a second, but at the third, my choice was to put him down as his quality of life would have been questionable. He was a wonderful creature but the time came to surrender him.
When PJ colicked at age 27, with a serious heart condition, I told them surgery was not an option. I nearly lost him, but it would have been the only reasonable and compassionate choice.
I have colic insurance on my Boys through the Strongid worming program, but none else otherwise. The premiums are high and as I stated before, when insurance did pay off, the premiums went up.
One, really expensive horse? Yes. Several, don't think it's possible for me.
Tracey, I guess I might be slightly different on the quality of life issue if I had room for them simply to retire and not take up the space of one that can work. I can't really tell and I have to be honest and say I'm not at all sure that I would be. Tetley had a home for life here no matter how much work he could do (it was actually causing him difficulty to keep him here in the end), but he was the first :-) Neither Jazz nor Zip have got there yet ....
£10,000 isn't really that difficult, though it's not common - the horse had almost severed a forefoot in wire. Almost everone was of the "her quality of life will be severely affected" school of thought and would have put her down.
The owner said "Do whatever you can to save her", so they did. Skin grafts were necessary because the area was so huge that it would not granulate in by itself with sufficient strength to hold the foot on the end of the leg. She was in hospital for weeks. By the time it was all put back together the bill was short change distance of £10,000 and the owner was insured to £5000 and did not have the rest. She actually featured in the Daily Mail, or it might have been The Express, as a "look how wonderful it is that this horse was saved", story.
The mare was given to a good friend of mine because the owner could not then afford to keep her and pay the vet bill. She has bred two nice foals, so I guess that there might have been some point. But it's not where I would have been.
I have another friend who paid over £6000 to keep a mare alive with a hock joint infection. Already 17, full thoroughbred raced at two, unsound with spavin, carrying a foal with a stud fee of £500 (so no superstar and not much to lose).
Apart from the fact that they took huge risk with the antibiotic (Baytril?) meaning that she might give birth to a bent legged foal, I can't help looking at the now two year old and seeing a nice-but-not-exceptional horse that cost £8,000 in total just to be born and a crocked mare that is arthritic in four legs (she knackered her knees coming out of the anaesthetic - twice) which is now going to have to be put down anyway or left in chronic low grade arthritic pain until she dies of old age.
If you aren't loaded with dosh, going without insurance isn't for anyone who can't harden their heart :-((( I don't want to encourage anyone to do it just because it works for me.
Jean that's awful, colic at only four :-( Colic surgery is on my list of no-go areas. The recovery is so long and recurrence is so common - it's a no for me.
C
Just for the record, the two scenarios you describe don't fit my "quality of life" standards, I'd have let them both go.
Tracey B
My Superhubby, who is English, was/is always against insurance. It was a bit confusing in England, because People want to insure you for anything.
In Italy, it is not a problem, horse or pet insurance does NOT exist. We only pay something in case one of our pets or my son provoke an accident.
I am sure C. will tell us what is the name for this legal insurance ^-^ !
I also would not say "do whatever to save this animal". We may go to some extreme for my mare, if she can become a broodmare, because she has a GREAT lines. that is why, I would not invest in another gelding or a mare without pedigree ( what is it for horses?).
I think I may be "worse" than you C. ...
I am also contemplating to sell Morgan to the slaughter, If I cannot find a decent buyer.
It may sound cruel. But I would prefer to have him PTS, instead of being sold then re-sold, abused, starved etc ... like he had been in the past!
So yep, no horse insurance !
Yes, I agree Caroline - but being a farmer makes me rather pragmatic about these things.
The vet came to one of our cattle and said that if it was a special pet we could put it on a drip, etc. etc. but since it wasn't we had better get it shot and taken away!
We DO treat cattle and give them a chance and don't like to loose them for any reason, but they are supposed to be keeping us!
I do have my horse insured, in case of a major incident like colic or a bad accident, but I only have one horse.
I agree that people (and vets) go on treating horses when it would be better all round to let them go. Like the 29 year old pony that the vet kept treating, it died in the end and the owner had £1,500 in vets fees.
It is that lovely thing that the vet says "Is it insured?"
Judith
Tracey that's really interesting that we would have come to the same conclusion, maybe from slightly different start points.
Muriel it's called Third Party Insurance :-))) Almost all house insurance policies in the UK used to have it on, including for riding your horse away from home. It's cover for the person, not the house. Ours has got it, but I also get it through being in British Eventing.
Judith you share some of my cynicism of vets, obviously. They can be great, but to make Partner they have to bring in revenues and for the less principled ones that means doing a selling job on owners.
Jaz's release notes say "re-scope before starting work". The cost of that would be over £130 plus my diesel to get him there. I asked the vet "What are the possible outcomes of that scoping?". He didn't answer for several seconds. I said, "Let me rephrase the question. Further operations are not an option. If this one hasn't worked, then I will convert him to dressage only and probably sell him". The vet then said "Then there's no point in him being scoped again". No one discussed it with me, they just wrote it on the form and expected me to blindly and unquestioningly fork out for something that was going to be of no use to me or Jazz whatsoever. No wonder insurance is so darned expensive!
C.
it's public liability insurance. third party insurance is what the other guy has that just rear ended you.
I agree with you as well Caroline - although both of mine are insured, Queenie only costs me £10 pcm and if she broke her leg they'd pay something, but if she got colic, I won't be expending huge fortunes I haven't got to save her if she needed ops for it (she is after all 25 this year). when she got kicked right on the knee and you could see the high possiblity of it getting infected (happily it didn't) I was the one who raised the issue of prognosis with the vet, other people on the yard thought the vet was well out of order discussing the possibility of it ending up with her being put down, but since I'd instigated the topic as it had to be discussed, I rather thought they were being lily livered. which isn't to say I wouldn't have been upset it if it had come to that, I would have been, but one has to face these things head on instead of getting emotional etc. about it.
and I'd agree with Jean & Muriel as well.
I do think sometimes people get too soppy. My view is, we have the choice of making the right decision for our animals and should do so. Pity we can't do the same for our people if they end up in the same horrid state.
I entirely agree with Tracey B's approach and is where I sit too. However I don't have my own land so pasture ornament is a very tricky one. If I had the land and the option then my only question would be what would his quality of life be.
The horse being of use to me would not come into it.
Colic surgery is not an option I would ever consider and is something my best friend and my YO are aware of in my absence.
However....the 'horse' I refer to is Robin, my best friend.
I couldn't say hand on heart how all this would translate to another horse as i've only ever had the one.
With the insurance question I have always insured him mainly for the vets fees cover it offered. But the exclusions mount up - these days not just for what you claim for but often for what your horse has received treatment for in the past. That now makes my insurance not worth the paper it's written on and for the first time he is uninsured (something that doesn't sit well with me but then i'm a worry wort!!). Two years ago he was diagnosed with Proximal Suspensory Desmitis but that was only after i'd fought tooth and nail for him to be referred to Newmarket (after what I felt was a misdiagnosis by my vet - I was proved correct), but without my insurance which paid out £5000 towards treatment i'd have seriously struggled to go that route and the horse I have now aged 18 doing very well at affiliated dressage and loving his xc, wouldn't be here.
It's a difficult decision in the early days for those that chose not to insure but to self insure - as there isn't that pot of money that has built up over the years into which to dip, unless you are very well off.
Well i reckon i fall inbetween somewhere. I admit im very emotional where my animals are concerned and they are with me for life whenever possible. Im not a land owner and pay livery but Polo will be with me until the end unless something happened out of my control. But then ive had many years of pleasure ,well sort of:) ,from him,im sure i'l feel the same about Ali in due course!
I did say those words do whatever you can when polo had the joint infection. The vet gave him poor prognosis of pulling through or being rideble but i felt i had to give him a chance. But on the other hand i also had someone who would make that 'phonecall' to the vet if he went downhill.
Ive taken several of my pet dogs to be pts when i knew their quality of life was going so i do feel i know when to draw the line but i maybe have a slightly further away line than some:))
I suppose i feel i have to at least give them a chance if recovery is an option but i most def know when going further would cause more suffering than fair or a pointless exercise.
Incidentally my friends mare,Ellie, had colic surgery many years ago &touch wood never had a problem since she's 16now.
I was also told by the vet i'd probably never ride polo again but he's never had a lame day on that leg since and is 15 so i dont regret taking that chance or the money.
But i do think weighing everything up banking the money and going public liablity only is worth a gamble .especially considering Polo's age and how much im paying for the insurance.
I have a feeling that here in NZ you can't even insure a 15yo horse!
When I did my weeks work experience at the vets there were a number of really old cats and dogs that were being kept alive on drugs so that the owner could keep them for just a few more weeks. That is one thing I could never do, an animal dying from old age should be allowed to die. They get that look about them that they are ready and I think taking them beyond that point is wrong.
With Ra's colic is was a "do what ever it takes", but then he is worth quite a lot, money wise and emotionaly. If he had had to have the surgery and it didn't work the first time then I would weigh my options.
I think that the animal will usually tell you what is right. You can tell when they are still fighting and when they have given up.
I only have the one (inexpensive to buy) horse and she is insured but despite that there are limits to what I'd put her through for my own sake. It would depend entirely on whether her best interests were being served. I do think I'm a strong enough person to make that call, however hard it may be.
I am faced with the prospect of having a pasture ornament as my mare has just been diagnosed with arthritis in all 4 legs. It's mild at the moment and IV Hyonate (hyaluronic acid) may ease the discomfort enough that we can continue happy hacking. If it doesn't, she'll be retired. I'm lucky in that my vets practice don't immediately take the "it's insured, throw money at it" approach, in fact mine was surprised when I said my insurance should cover the injections (£300 a pop, though cheaper than injecting into each leg, that would be £1200, and she needs 2 rounds).
Technically I don't have space for a pasture ornament as I keep my mare on a livery yard, but she's special to me and I don't mind having one horse that I can't ride.
The most heartbreaking thing I've seen around horses was a horse who'd shattered her pastern bone flailing around on the concrete yard as she'd gone down and couldn't get back up whilst the vet was casting her leg. She was travelled all the way to Liverpool in this state, then pts there as they couldn't do anything. If the horse hadn't been insured I'm sure she'd have been pts at home, without all the extra trauma she went through (it was horrific).
I do agree there are many people who keep animals going for too long,in particular old ones.
I used to work in at a vet's and saw it time and time again I do sometimes wish vets would give a more frank opinion and say to these owners enough is enough this animal is not going to recover or is now suffering!I used to find the vets who werent partners or locums were more liable to say enough..wonder why!?!;)
Girl on our yard eventually had her mare PTS this year she had arthritis in all her joints.She couldnt trot and struggled to get up from lying down and I think she let this go on far too long and it was sad to see.
What really made me mad though was she said how much she loved her but she knew the mare had arthritis several years before but continued to flog her around trotting flat out on hard ground!
I still think she wouldnt have made the decision if we hadnt kept mentioning how stiff/sore she looked.
Blimey what a great discussion!
I too have seen friends leave unhappy arthritic horses out in the winter on the Peak Hill for at least a year longer that they had any decent quality of life. I'd rather risk doing it too early than leaving it too late..... I wish the horse could speak and tell us.
Allan's father was left alive for about 5 years after anyone would have put him out of his misery if he'd been a dog, so I agree with you Claire. Is your mother on the list????????? Joke!!!!
Thanks for the really fascinating and enjoyable input everyone, far too much here to comment on it all.
Claire - DOH!! - of course it's public liability. Senior moment there :-)
C
I put a comment on the wrong place - see yesterday Amanda!
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