From bad to worse.
Appalling. Absolutely appalling. He picked a fight with some banners around the warmup arena. I got off and led him up to them and he sniffed them. I got back on and he carried on using them as an excuse not to hold the bend. SH told me to move away from them but I know that if I do that all he does is refuse to go back anywhere near, and then bolt if you try to make him. I did eventually get a decent-ish warmup.
Then we went to the ring. There were two people inside the judges box with a window and I took him to say hello. He was fine, he went right up to it and breathed on the glass. There were some showjumps stacked outside the fence at about E and I did circles on a long rein close by until he had stopped looking at them. She beeped, we started.
He wobbled up the centre line backing off the judges box all the way, flung himself into a "track left" at least five yards short of the arena end, spooked badly at the showjumps, went round the end at A on totally the wrong bend and just looking outside the fence for trouble and crossed the diagonal trying again not to have to go near the judges box. I retired in despair, it was only going to get worse if I'd carried on, he wasn't going to settle.
She let me stay in the arena for a few minutes, and as long as I kept him away from C and in a bend, he did some OK work.
Then we went to showjump. He warmed up with enthusiasm, which felt terrific. Not a hint of a stop, he seemed to be really enjoying it. We went into the arena, to face 9 fences a good 6 inches and more smaller than we do in practice. He backed off number 1 from several strides out. He jumped it second time, scraped over 2 and refused twice at 3. If we hadn't already retired in the dressage we were of course eliminated at this stage.
Thankfully they let me start again and do it as a "clear round". I got him round, but that's about all that can be said for it, it was reluctant, sulky, obstructive, careless and whatever other terms you care to use.
He's a complete and utter disaster. Nearly two years training and he's worse than he was last year in a competition situation. I'd sell him but can you imagine the conversation?
Is he a safe hack?
No.
Will he jump showjumps?
No.
How about natural fences?
No.
Well he's got super paces, he must score well in a dressage test?
No.
Is there anything good about him?
He's good to catch ..... um..... he doesn't mind being groomed ......
I mean, what's he worth, even if I could find anyone idiot enough to take him on? I think I shall just have to demote him to 3rd string and promote Zippy. So the focus is on competing George affiliated PN, improving his flatwork and keeping him fit to event. Then on getting Zippy jumping and developing his stunning flatwork into even better stuff. And lastly on competing Jazz, because until he learns to control his emotions when he's away from home it is pointless doing a minute's more work with him unless I particularly feel like riding him. We have a One Day Event, tiny and local, next week. The plan to compete him affiliated at Stafford is out the window, it will simply be a waste of £120 entry fee and diesel. I will find more local dressage and showjumping and keep taking him until he works it out. I think it will take two years, so he simply becomes an interesting experiment in horse psychology, and I will stop hoping for him to come good any time soon, perhaps even ever.
As a start in the pshychological experiment, we travelled him home with the door between him and us shut, so he started to get the message that he doesn't count as much as he thinks he does. He tried to climb on the tack locker but he was tied down. So most of the way home he kicked and stamped and weaved, especially weaved, so the lorry was swaying. I checked him through the spyhole to make sure he was safe, and boy did he look angry!
What an absolutely infuriating prat he is. The only thing he is 100% comprehensively brilliantly good at is failure. Thank heavens for George, what a dreadful year this would have been without him.
C
posted by cptrayes @ 4:11 PM
25 comments
25 Comments:
I know you are feeding him the antacid, but do try the ulcer medication anyhow. Start by eliminating any physical cause. I thought all of Tucker's issues and misbehavior off my property were psychological too, but once he had the ulcer treatment the change was dramatic. The problem seems to lie in the fact that once the horse starts to work under stress, the acid causes pain which, in turn, causes the emotional/behavioral reactions. (www.ponymeds.com) The ulcer med allows the ulcer to heal whereas an antacid has a much more temporary effect.
Tucker spooked at all kinds of things on the showgrounds and was abominable. I too was in despair. I just think it would be worth the effort with Jazz.
I really do feel your pain in this. Jazz is supremely talented. I thought at least he would be good for the dressage.
I've been the "attack banner" route myself as it's clear they pose a very dangerous threat to horses. *sigh*
Kenny Harlow has a technique for getting a horse to face a fearful object that works and, over time requires less and less effort to work.
You trot the horse parallel to the scary object at what is, to the horse, a safe distance. Pass about 10' or so beyond the object, then reverse, turning towards the object. You go back and forth, back and forth, gradually closing the size of the pass and the distance from the object. The horse keeps moving as long as he reacts to the object. And only gets to rest when he is willing to face and approach the object without spooking.
I've found over time that is only takes a pass or two to fix a spook as the horse realizes that if he continues to be "scared," he will have to work hard. Most horses, being lazy, prefer to stop spooking rather quickly to avoid all the trotting back and forth.
Sorry Jazz disappointed. There is a key to him somewhere. I know it will take time, but I really think his talent is worth the effort.
Phew, what a day. It might be worth doing what Jean says, with the medication, just so you can see you have explored all avenues.
It must be infuriating, but only by keep taking him will he get over this
(hopefully!).
I knew of a girl who bred a horse for hunting, but he was a big strong 17.00 horse that was a lunatic when she took it. She sent it somewhere else, but he quickly came back. She tried 2 or 3 people. She had just about given up when the whipper-in said he would take him every day for a week, well 6 days running. It worked. She can now take him hunting safely!
So that is a rather long-winded way of suggesting that you take him somewhere everyday for a week and see if that works.
Judith
Do I get this right? He, the errant wonder, is George? Ah I've read a comment that indicates it's Jazz.
Clearly I should drop by more often, to keep better track of things. Things can only get better from here!
Pandover
Oh sos sorry C you are so disappointed.
Jazz is a talented horse but also very sensitive. As YOU pointed out, he needs to learn to control his emotions oustisde home.
It sounds to me he is a very scaredy cat. He needs safety.
Find a good NH person ( 7 games here, but proper horse psychology) ... As JKean as expalined, he needs lots of approach and retreat.
But I am sure you will get him under control.
I'd suggest investing in getting Max out; he regularly comes up in your general direction and it may well be well worth it....(possibly in addition to ulcer meds... but i don't know enough about that). he has been doing a tour this year, but the nearest one to you has been and gone. the next nearest is 5 miles from me on Friday...
Thanks for your supportive comments guys, but I've no intention of throwing good money after bad by paying trainers to "help" me. I usually do the job those trainers do - sort out other peoples failures. I think my record on that says that this is him and not me. As Judith says, what he needs is more and more and more exposure to a competition environment. That's what he's going to get. But it's going to take another two years for his desperately immature brain to catch up with his body, I think.
Jean I can't go with the ulcer theory, sorry. He has pain from an ulcer at one end of the warm up arena but not the other? He has pain from an ulcer at one end of the competition arena and not the other? He has no pain when he warms up to jump, but he does when he goes round the course (which is in the same arena.)? It doesn't stack up. This is in his brain, not his body. I'm here on him, I can feel it.
Pandover how dare you defame George so! Hush your mouth, the boy's a complete star! (Pandover's my brother folks :-)
C
I can see why you are all interpreting what I said as me being upset. But actually, you should read it again as a purely factual account of what he did. I'm not particularly upset about it, it wasn't that surprising given his previous form away from home under competition conditions (as opposed to training sessions). He's an interesting experiment now - hugely psychologically complex and hugely physically talented. He's unsellable even if I wanted him to be sold, and he's got a gorgeous character that compensates for being forced to keep him. George has already proved himself and is enough just by himself! But I also have Zippy, another physical superstar who appears to have a much easier brain. I'll bet some of you would just kill to have a life as "difficult" as mine!
C
I know exactly where your coming from C been there got the t-shirt..you are describing Polo's behaviour!
I think this is why ive always had a slightly pessimistic feeling about Jazz there seems to be too many similarities.
The only thing that helped was repetition and eventually we could go somewhere and do something without the lunacy.But the really fun bit is if you dont go for a period of time your back to square one!:0
Not a very positive post is it!
The one thing I will say is it cant be re-created at home it doesnt matter how much you practice a,b or c the only way is to go somewhere and expose him to it so I reckon your on the right track.
I suppose now you have no expectations or ambitions for him so it can only get better:)
ps.I dont mean pessimistic in that he's not worth the effort or you'll never get anywhere just that I had a feeling it wouldnt be straight forward and for a long time it will feel one step forward two back!
Just to work the ulcer thing again...Tucker's behavior was totally erratic as well. Sometimes fine in the arena and not in the warmup and vice versa. No consistency whatsoever.
PJ was erratic too. He'd be fine and then get nervous. My theory with him was not ulcers back then, but that he'd be ok until at some point, his brain noticed his muscles soreness (a chronic problem) instead of all the other stuff going on around him and then he'd lose his focus on the world and get wrapped up in himself.
I know I'm harping on this, but the ponymeds are cheap enough that a one month daily treatment with three pills wouldn't be too painful. 'Course I don't know about ths shipping/mailing fees to the UK.
The problem is not the shipping Jean. Omeprazole is a prescription only drug in the UK. It's likely to get impounded by customs, and in any case I cannot, as a JP be seen to be importing a controlled substance. I might try the ranitidine that Nicola has used because that's cheap and available. Omeprazole would need him to have a scoping and a prescription from the vet and that would cost around £100.
Nicola, I echo your thoughts entirely about the probable relapse if we don't go anywhere for a while. He came third in his last test, a year ago?, in much more challenging conditions than yesterday. He warmed up really well to showjump yesterday, but the same task at the cross country a few weeks ago, he had kittens.
He has a terrible brain. But at least he's not as wild as Polo and doesn't buck unless I hit him. I also agree that he will never be able to go anywhere with either of the other two because he won't be able to cope with having to leave them. He's a bit of a headcase, obviously, but completely unsellable except for a pittance (to someone like me!) so we have to see what we can do with him.
Fortunately, when he moves, he looks like the horses that SH and I saw at the National Championships, so at least it feels like there is some point to giving him more time. Dolendo eventually made the Olympics. OK it took them five years to crack his brain, but they got there!
C
geez he sound so much like Korskie, he was a pure nightmare at a competition......We got fab work at home (ie canter half pass etc) only to score threes in a novice test, just cos he would adrenalise at a competition and it was impossible to settle him.
I gave up competing and sent him jumping with a mate....he was still a pratt at times, but being hyped helped the jumping ayway.....he also turned out to be quite capable fast and clear xc too.....as long as he was pointed at the fence he was fine, if he had to trot passed one he spooked wildly...........
Wish I could suggest something useful.
If you want to try something along the more 'natural' route first ive had Polo on the Hiltons herb Gastric X supplement recently. http://www.hiltonherbs.com/equine/equine_specialneeds.cfm?cfid=31237715&cftoken=78896285 . I do think its made a difference his poos are definitely better..interestingly enough its under their 'Special Needs' section:)))))
Im sure if it was full blown ulcer it wouldnt cure anything but im not convinced Polo is full blown ulcer just that he has an acidic gut which is triggered with stress.I get this myself but have been tested and dont have an ulcer so why not the ned..thats my theory anyway!
/// He's a bit of a headcase, obviously, but completely unsellable except for a pittance (to someone like me!) so we have to see what we can do with him.///
Now you know why I stuck with Polo ..I had no choice in the matter:)
Seriously I wouldnt have sold him even if I could have.
I have been having a bit of a ponder about Jazz.
I think if you can get the ulcer medication fairly cheaply it might well be worth going with this. It has completely transformed some horses, and brought some back from the brink of being PTS (according to the Intelligent Horsemanship DG and despite very sceptical vets). I do rather go along with what you said about being OK in some parts of the arena and not others, but it could well be worth just trying it.
The other thing I was pondering was , not to invite "an expert" but just to consider how they might tackle it, people like Mark Rashid, Dr. Deb Bennett (the Birdie theory) and yes, even Parelli people and or Tom from Australia. The sort of people who do actually go out and compete, not just keep horses as pets.
It must be infuriating, as you are not asking him anything unreasonable or too difficult. Is he really frightened or his he just not listening to you and thinking about what is going on instead.
Some people do say that if a horse is "really excited" he is actually "really worried." Although I'm not sure how to cure it!
Best wishes
Judith
Hello, I've been unable to post for a while, but I have been following.
George is ace, I love him :o)
I'm sorry Jazz has finally burst his bubble in your eyes C. He sounds like a real baby still, getting all unecessary about anything new. How old is he now?
Have you considered just preparing him for pure dressage with lots of hacking to keep him happy. Forget the jumps until you've got the obedience you desire in all situations in dressage at shows?
Its just a thought, I know you have the whole picture and I may be missing something key with my observation.
Chin up, you've got the Georgester and don't even think of selling him.
Tracey B
The daft thing is that I still love the old toad - he is so magnificent to look at, and something else altogether to ride. I don't want to sell him at all, which is just as well really isn't it :-) ?
Nice to know I'm not alone Mandeigh! I wish jumping was an option!!
Nicola can you just confirm the ranitidine worked too? Like you, I'm pretty sure he hasn't got an ulcer, but he does get an acid gut when over-stimiulated.
Judith I had to laugh at the "enjoying hacking" bit - that's taken nearly two years and still isn't what he would choose to do if it was left up to him. Every strange thing "gets to" him - every flower that grows on the verge that wasn't there last time he went out. He has some serious brain issues :-(
I am game to take anyone's ideas on board. I use bits of Monty Roberts, Parelli, and "Max" Maxwell and Heather Moffet (yes really, she's a good teacher and I was her demo person at workshop once) and anything at all that works.
It's extremely difficult to get any sensibly cost effective outside help you when the only time you have any real issues is in a competition. I could take him to a trainer and pay for help but he won't do it in a training situation, he knows the difference.
Because I've got George (three cheers AGAIN for George) and he is so fabulous at eventing, we can take Jazz on as an interesting experiment. I am fascinated to see what I can do with him. It may take years yet, but at least it'll give me something to write about!
My first plan is to take him back to yesterday's place next week, and enter two, or maybe three, dressage competitions in one go. So we warm up, compete, warm up more, compete and warm up again and compete. I think that would be a very interesting exercise, don't you? Will he get more stressed as the tests pile up, or less?????
It's a great help being able to chat it through, do keep up the suggestions and shared experiences.
C
C
The "warm up then compete" x 3 sounds like a very interesting concept!
I always enter two tests and almost always find that they go better in the second test, just because they are more warmed up if nothing else.
Judith
The ratinidine could show results after a few days. If you do decide to try it, dose him several days before the competition to give it time to take effect.
Here again, Kenny Harlow's place/training would be so good for Jazz. First would be a ton round pen work and then...long, long rides in the mountains. 6 hours a day. And, from what I was told, horse games in the arena as well. Tucker was quite reformed when I got him back. It was kind of totaly immersion exposure. It did cost me a pretty penny, but it was worth it. It was getting to the point that I was really scared to ride him, especially in new situations.
I think taking Jazz to new places over and over is a good tactic. Hopefully his foolishness is mostly immaturity. Tuck, now at 8, seems to be really settling, so Jazz has some time yet. It's so frustrating when they have a world of talent and a mismatched emotional brain to go with it.
By the by, would a vet really have to scope him if you explained his behavior? My vet here would prescribe Gastrogard if he suspected ulcers. Wish we could get you some legally. When I spoke to my vet, he said it would do no harm if my horse did not have ulcers, so it was a safe option.
I started with 6 Ranitidene for around a week but it wasnt until I upped it to 9/10 I noticed a difference.I'd go for 12 to give him a good dose and I reckon if there's a difference you should notice in few days.
Dont get me wrong Polo hasnt suddenly become bombproof but its like the edge has been taken off him and he stops and thinks rather than just react...well sometimes:)
Hurrah for George!:))
Well I could ask Jean, but I wouldn't expect them to be prepared to put their name to a written prescription without a scoping to get a diagnosis first. We are currently so litigious in this country that it would be a foolish risk for them to take. If he got an adverse reaction, like he did to his flu jab, then I could sue them if there was no evidence that he needed the drug in the first place.
Tracey sorry I got your name wrong and then didn't answer your question. He's still only six, so there's plenty of time for a big improvement yet. The good thing about him compared with Nicola's Polo is that although he regresses, he never goes back to quite as low a point as he started at, so although the progression is achingly slow, it is measurably there.
I'll try some ranitidine and it will be clear from his behaviour on a hack whether it has made any difference or not. He will either make a fuss about the new bit of wall/hens/new flowers/cut verges/broken down wall/car bits on the road etc etc etc or he won't. He goes past them all now, but he is still very looky and it will be easy to tell if the lookiness decreases at all.
We are booked for three tests on Wednesday. I will stop once he has tried his best to do one properly. If he doesn't, he gets to do all three. We'll see what happens!
C
just wondered if it was worth a brewers yeast suppliment or add some mag ox........good for the gut and muscle relaxing.
So he's 6, but only just, which equals about 3.5 mental years in warmblood terms. I think your plan of taking him to dressage events and staying there until he behaves acceptably is a good one. If it were me I'd ditch jumping (even though we love it) until he's achieved an acceptable and reliable behaviour level in the dressage arena.
Its worth trying the ulcer treatment at the same time I think.
Cheers Tracey B
I think I calculated 15 tablets of ranitidine when I tried it with Tucker. Again, you have to give it some time to work as anticipating the pain, even if it isn't there is part of the behavioral pattern.
Darn it about the vets and the litigation. Makes it hard for the owner who really wants the best for her horses. Wonder how many good treatments might be overlooked because they are still a little experimental.
You are absolutely right Judith and although it's a combined training competition again, I have booked him only for the dressage parts.
I shall wait until after Wednesday before I give him ranitidine because I want to know if Wednesday's strategy works or the medecine does and if I do both at once I can't tell!
Meanwhile, I have found out that a pony I recommended to some friends has been behaving badly and I will be telling them to check him for ulcers. He did not seem to me to be at all that kind of pony. But the battery-hen conditions in the yard that they took him to seemed to me to be just the kind of place that would cause him to get them!
I have a feeling that I may be giving you all a picture of some dangerous or seriously difficult behaviour by Jazz when he gets silly. It's not like that, he's just silly. You want a right bend and you get a left one. And it doesn't matter what you do, you aren't going to get a right one and if you really insist then he will just take you down the other end of the arena. He doesn't buck or rear or anything else, but he does feel as if he would be quite happy to cart you right out of there, though he doesn't actually do it. It doesn't seem much like pain related behaviour to me, just complete mental immaturity. I think 3 is a bit generous Judith :-))) (Actually, that's exactly what my 3 year olds have been like, you're right again!)
I'm not feeling on top form today, I have a virus, so I'm conserving my energy for tomorrow by not riding today. We leave at eight and all we hope is that George does what he did last time - love it!
C
Good input on the time delay Jean,thanks.
Mandeigh he's on about 30gramms of Mag Ox a day in his mineral supplement, and it stopped him "not-quite-cribbing" overnight. It was a miraculous change in hours, as soon as it got into his system.
C
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